Navigating Love, Family, and Therapy in South Asian Relationships: A Conversation with Manali

Hi everyone and welcome to Therawin Tales your One-Stop shop for exploring the beauty of culture and therapy I am Sakshi Verma your host and today we have a very special guest with us man who is a licensed psychotherapist hi Manali how are you doing today hi I'm very excited to be here and thank you for having me um for our listeners this podcast is all about you know navigating the complex world of relationships within South Asian cultural context and outside as well so if you are an Indian immigrant living in the USA or anywhere in the world or a couple residing in India this episode is truly for you yeah it's such an exciting topic to have right because we don't really talk about couples and um and modern relationships and how what it turn the impact that they might be having and um yeah excited to kind of chat more around this that's so true uh so Manali my first and foremost question to you will be like like as a therapist what is the word relationship you know sounds like to you so what does it mean for you to me relationship sounds like commitment and support right so you're committed to each other from a lens of helping each other grow and you're putting in the effort you're showing up every day you are not checking out right and you are recognizing that things will get difficult and we will work through that difficulty so there is that commitment aspect that where two parties are coming together and sharing that this is what I'm committing to not just the good times but also the difficult times and then support looks like you know either of one of us might have a difficult time at some point in our life and even when we don't have a difficult time we might just need some encouragement some sort of validation some reassurance because you're kind of going about life trying to figure it out day to day right so your partner is your support system and you are the support system for your partner so kind of making sure that we are sort of helping each other grow providing that that support when yeah providing that unconditional support and just being there for the other person even when you agree with it or not yeah that that's so true right so Manali it's it's always a question that arises to me right if you see our parents you know when our parents they got married and there was not much such thing as the couple therapist you know you like people in relationship going to couple therapists and talking about their issues to them and you know something that they are dealing with because it's always considered as a very personal issue to a lot of Indian couples that they don't want to share what's going on in their relationship so why do you think there is such a rise in suddenly when we talk about people going and talking about their relationships to the therapist yeah I think the main thing is um traditionally like I think couples when they would have a good difficult time they had two options one is just you know suck it up and continue to live how it how you've been living so the commitment aspect was there in terms of okay we are not separating each other but the emotional commitment was no longer there right because you're not really emotionally committed to each other you're just a coexisting together so I think that was the difference but um so couples were just kind of continue as they were despite there being so many concerns um and decide to not get any additional support because the emotional commitment didn't even feel like it was missing right so that's one piece but the other piece was that from what I've heard traditionally like you would go to your external family you would go to your elders in the family and they would you would go to maybe some distant relative who would then get involved in your relationship to to kind of mediate the concerns mediate the conflicts so there has been some idea of like you know getting some support is just been more like we're going to get support within the family Dynamic with the within the family unit not kind of going outward and not sharing our like whatever is going on outside of the family so there was some form of support on that lens but I think what's changing is that today more couples are maybe wanting to build that emotional con commitment and connection and that maybe has felt a little more important than it did before um and it sounds like even if maybe it's important it's it feels like it's the foundation of the relationship that will make or break the relationship right it feels like okay if this is not there then I am going to let my give myself the choice to take a step back from this relationship so people are reaching out to couple therapy to build that communication to build that emotional connection to resolve conflicts because they want to move forward um and they don't want to just kind of accept that this is what it is in some way um and the other thing is there's so much of like individual um there's a sense of like um individual happiness in some way that's starting to feel a little more important which we are also probably taking in from like best in values right but like individual happiness has started to feel a little more important so when a relationship is giving you some concerns it rocks your individual happiness and then that's what leads you to maybe see therapy or coup's therapy to kind of help rebuild some of that okay so Manali um thank you so much for you know making us understand this why couple therapy is being so famous right now and why people are very much coming forward and talking about it uh but I also want to understand starting from the base level itself right so if we see the traditional Indian um marriages that would happen during our parents or you know before that it's very arrange arranged marriages very famous in Indian culture right and then now suddenly we have uh moved to people choosing their own partner and then you know feeling more proud about it and then fighting for their love to their parents so we have kind of seen that tradition uh that transition as an Indian uh person so are there any trends that that were prevalent during the time when people would have arranged marriages and now that people have shifted to um love marriages quote unquote to me that sounds like what exists in the relationship when you do come together right so the the process is to help you both meet each other which is in arrange marriage okay you both are coming together families are involved like there's a lot you're still building a relationship in a way for a couple of years at the beginning of your marriage right so um I think it is maybe driven by uh the again the commitment and loyalty aspect to the family to the marriage system overall uh while in love marriages maybe it's sort of you're coming together by individual as as two individuals and then bringing families in right so there's a sense of like okay I we already build this relation we have this relationship and that commitment and loyalty is to each other not so much to the family remember it still could be it's just not um the foundation in some way right you you may feel more of a choice to build that as a foundation so I think the trend that I'm Trend may be more so of like why I think there are so many concerns that come up within a couple and within the relationship aspect when it comes to Indian relationships right there are families involved there's the cultural aspect involved um you there are so many like gender roles there are household ches work related stuff so you both are still figuring out where you stand on those values and whether it's arranged marriage or love marriage like once you do commit a lot of these conversations feel a lot more like you're living in it right you could have conversations about it but you you're actually coming together and you're living through these values you're living through what it looks like to you know coexist knowing that there might be some of these differences so I think like I don't know if there might I I think I'm going from a direction of like either way arrange OD love like it's sort of Moree like how are we both committing to each other to explore some of these differences that we could have and even if we don't have differences how do we allow ourselves to live through some of these values in a relationship right so um so yeah I think like that's that's maybe a big pie right right and you mentioned that when especially in Indian culture when two couples come together to you know get married or being into that relationship their families are always involved and we ID have such large families and yeah each having different values different beliefs so it kind of is very difficult to intertwine it within your relationship you know within the differences that you both has and then you also have to navigate the differences that both of your families have exactly yeah yeah right so since this podcast is um you know surrounded around mental health a lot so can you share some examples of how couples actually it affects their mental health you know that they know they both love each other but then they also have to navigate so many different things mhm yeah I think it does give a lot Pro it rocks the foundation of the relationship right in love or like in marriages that have come together by themselves it rocks the foundation of that relationship when like families might get involved or you might be on some different pages when it comes to family engagement and when arrange marriages you're it takes a long time to build that Foundation because the initial period is just kind of mending being with the both those families right so I think that can be a big difference so I think family involvement and how you can take a step back or prevent yourself or maintain those boundaries with your with your kids is a separate topic right that's so much that's a lot for parents and that's a lot for other members of the family to talk about but for the couple the relationship where the family is getting involved it as I mentioned it drops the foundation and that then leads you to feel anxious it makes you feel depressed it makes you feel hopeless there's a lot of hopelessness that I sometimes see in couples where it's like if this is what it's going to look like what's the point because when family when there are concerns around family right or just the involvement is happening you and one of one person in the couple say for example starts to get impacted by it right like those conversations then that person in the relationship will bring that anxiety with them right of like hey I'm feeling hopeless I'm feeling anxious that this keeps happening while the other person in the relationship they might not want to engage in this because they're not feeling the same way as this person right so it might be hard for them to empathize that then leads them to avoid the conversation that then leads them to retract that then leads them to kind of check out when it comes to these conversations or it also leads them to maybe um try to kind of fix the situation too right so in in in a way both this conversation then feels a lot more challenging to have right because you're sort of you both are on different pages it's bringing this like this Comfort between both of you so you keep putting it off and when and then whenever the family involvement comes about it's once again that like this like very um very uncomfortable it feels like a ter turmoil of a conversation overall right so um going back to the mental health aspect like I think the fact that like you know family is a part of our life and this might still keep happening brings that that hopelessness around and then that hopelessness as well as the avoidance that both parties could bring then makes the relationship kind of breading almost right because it's like oh like we're not able to move forward from this conversation and that's making me look at you differently in both parties um and the other piece is your relationship in some way is your is is your Anor in a way right you live with your part you come back home to your partner you're doing things with each other so it kind of can feel one of your anchor if not the whole like it is one of your anchor so when that's a little shaky it's like it's kind of Bound To Make You Feel Again like um really low it makes you like your motivation gets really um you lose your motivation because your mind is very occupied with these concerns um you're also not feeling kind of held by each other right because you're more distant from each other so you you don't feel validated you don't feel reassured you don't feel that sense of commitment that you probably once did um so I think all of that also maybe then rocks how you kind of view yourself your self-esteem your self-confidence um and and yeah the whole idea of your life starts to feel a little shaky so this is what I'm seeing a lot with like couples I see with they're they're in so much distress and they both want to work this out they both want to kind of you know find some solution but the problem is that they both are stuck in different spaces so for them to see each other's perspectives and come in between is where like coup's therapy or any other form of support could could be helpful right right and as Indians you know we've always been taught of adjusting to the situation okay compromise yeah so in relationship one of the people we see are always compromising and that kind of suppressed their their feelings and once or later it kind of burst out bigger problems and I also feel that gender roles have a very big impact in this in kind of expectations of adjustment or compromise in an ended marriage right so what what are your thoughts about it do you see that in couples that you kind of cons or you meet definitely and that's where I want to reframe the word compromise right like compromise doesn't look what we have been taught as compromise is that it's okay like you can you know do you can compromise your work for household stuff it's like you can compromise these like qualities in the other person for the future of your marriage Etc so um so there is a sense of compromise in that sense that we have been taught but a new way of maybe looking at compromise is that what are some cultural beliefs that you have been exposed to growing up that you're bringing into the relationship and how can you compromise on making shift in those beliefs right so you both are kind of one of them would be taught that oh you should be for example going with a very traditional gender role Norm right like you're supposed to look after your household the other is thought that oh you're supposed to provide but these are these beliefs that you hold and then when you come into the relationship you bring these beliefs with you until one of them is like I don't want to do this like I want us to figure some other thing out I don't want to be doing this while the other person's like oh what like wasn't this it doesn't everyone do do this or like it makes them feel maybe like they're they're less than or like they're wrong but like for them it's like oh yeah but I've seen this growing up and this is what the belief should be right so it's sort of more like yes you both of both of us have certain beliefs and have certain roles that we take with us when we come to the relationship but the new way of maybe thinking of compromise is how can we both maybe work on challenging some of these beliefs and try to create a thing that works for both of us together in this relationship right so it's sort of thinking of this is a culture this is a family we're still connected but we slowly forming our own unit and that's what could look like okay what does that unit look like and what do we both need to do in order to build that unit and work through that compromise because compromise gets difficult there is no denying the fact that like compromise is important in relationships but when one person is doing it over the other or one is expected to do it over the other and traditionally and even now it's usually the women who are expected to do that so then that's where that like resentment comes about right that's where you start to feel detached from the relationship and that's where we kind of starting to see people walk out of relationships because it's not a fair game way yeah right Manali you also mentioned that compromises are normal in relationships but is is it so you know isn't relationship all about that you you are truly yourself you know both the people understand each other so why do you say that in relationship compromises are bound to happen I think there might be a small example right so one is your you and your partner have decided to do 50/50 stuff around the home one day your partner comes and is extremely tired it's like and it's there time to cook dinner for example right this is a very small example but the other person is compromising their own time to show up in the relationship and kind of making making cooking the dinner for example because they know that like okay my partner is not able to show up in the relationship or not in the relationship for for us today because they are tired so it's sort of more like comp thinking of compromise in a way where you both are still showing up equally or showing up together where you both don't have to compromise for each other but your um the times at which you do that could could shift right so like you both want to be doing things to for each other and wanting to do it for yourself so it's sort of thinking of the word compromise has a lot of baggage in our culture because we are it's full of expectations here I'm not talking about expectation I'm thinking of compromise as a way to for you to see what are ways you can show up in your relationship and show up for the other person's needs and and you won't then feel resentful because the other person is doing the exact same thing right so it's like going for a movie which I hate but I know my partner wants to do it and I'm going to go for them that's that's compromise it's coming from a place of love it's coming from a place of showing up but if I keep going for a movie because the other person wants to do it while they are not doing this while they're not showing up for certain things I would like to do that's when that word compromise gets a lot heavier and one-sided right so again I want to emphasize thinking of the modern day word compromise as like showing up to each other putting in effort to show up to each other's needs and talking about it when it's maybe not feeling kind of helpful or like this Dynamic is shifting a little bit and being in communication around that what about those couples who are not able to communicate you know this feeling to their partner like suppose they know they do not like that movie that their partner want to watch but they're still showing up every time and then and it's kind of exhausting right because you don't like doing something that your partner wants yeah but you're also not able to communicate that to your partner so what can be some ways that they can do it yeah that's a great question and I think that's where the biggest challenge arise right of like in the communication in the couple relationship and we are not taught what to what it's like to communicate so um one of us might might be an overc communicator and like to share what's going on for us while the other person might suppress their feelings so it's again it doesn't feel helpful um one way that I like to you know share um with people who find it difficult to communicate is asking themselves what are you afraid of or what's the what's stopping you from communicating is it that the other person would never understand or would not take my needs into consideration okay has your partner shared that or showed that um where they they felt that okay know your needs are maybe too much or like no I'm not going to do that or have dismissed you they might say yes they have said that then it's more like okay then it's not just on you right it's also your partner who needs to share and validate and accept that like okay my partner's just showing this sharing this need what else can I say instead of like no I'm not doing that right like what are some other what's some other vocabulary so that's where they both need to come together and get that support um but if if if the person who is struggling to share their needs also suggest that no actually my partner is pretty good at like you know they don't ever make me feel like I'm asking for too much they're validating me then it's more like okay maybe historically you probably felt that your needs were too much and you were dismissed for it and this maybe is a relationship that's kind of challenging that narrative right but um can we maybe explore trying out in very small Stakes right when maybe it's not a very big need it's a need where it's movie for for example could could be a small stake for this person so it's like let me try doing this the next time we go for a movie and see what my partner says that can help build them build their trust with their partner and build the sense of like um acceptance that no I can slowly try bringing stuff up right so you're not overnight night going to be become an over Communicator or a communicator right it's sort of more like small steps to help build that credibility while when it comes to you sharing your your needs and your partner dismissing it that then leads you to not want to share your needs what you both as a couple could do as a as a as an exercise is firstly recognize that this is a concern that this is an issue and that you both don't have the tools to communicate so there is nothing wrong with either of you the relation reltionship it's something that you both need to build upon where you both are trying to figure out what else could I see in this moment to feel heard or to make my partner feel heard so that's when you both can maybe come together and practice using eye statements right like I want to be doing this or I feel like when we go for a movie um I'm not able to share what I want to be the movie that I want to be watching right so that sounds a lot more like it's coming from an authentic genuine space while when you say you statements like you don't you always take us to a movie that you want to be watching sure the intent is the same in both statements but feels a lot more accusa you could use that during a fight but not when you're trying to repair the relationship that's not going to be helpful right so kind of using some eye statements could be a helpful full peace while the other person who maybe is not used to hearing the needs or tends to dismiss it just maybe learning to kind of take it take this thing a lot of times what I also see in couples is that they the other person might not think it's as big of a deal for the for the person who is not able to share needs right so that's when they dismiss that's when they invalidate while the person who is not able to share the needs is like oh my God this person dismissed me again right so it's sort of this conversation also helps to be like no this is actually really bothering me can you please hear me out and the other person to also take that sincerely that request sincerely and show up in that conversation so there's a lot of emotional work I think that's involved in doing all of that right and it goes back to my point of emotional commitment sometimes people are like I'm done I can't do this or like they don't want to engage in that emotional commitment past trauma or anxiety depression also prevents them from showing up with that emotional commitment so all of that leads to then checking out right but to actually not check out and do the work both personally and as a relationship it takes so much effort and it's like yeah even right now just sharing that like that conversation in itself can be so overwhelming right right so Manali for what advice would you give to the couples who want to initiate this conversation right that suppose you kind of understand that your partner hasn't seen all of these emotions that you're feeling in their own family or while growing up so you kind of want to understand the background that they are coming from understand their own own um feelings of about this relationship and different Dynamics so how can you initiate the conversation about asking them their past traumas their past feelings that they have seen in their own family because it's always considered a topic that is not shared right and you want to you don't want to scare your partner away that oh my God you know they're blaming my parents about all the things that is happening here like why do you want to be doing it right so what why what what HS you if you want to learn more about them what would that help you with and sometimes for some people it might go to a place of like it might help me understand the other person more and understand why they do what they do it might help me explore and imagine a future for us where like okay how do we want to maybe change certain qualities with or change certain Behavior that we both hold for the future of our relationship right so it can it can come so kind of first thinking of for yourself that why would you like to know this um and the intention behind wanting to know it um but to answer your question directly I think a helpful way to start off is with consent right of like hey I would like to know a little bit about your trauma or I would like to know about your background or or what was it like growing up with your parents um and that's more so to help me understand you right so whenever you're ready I would love you can let me know and we can talk about it this way you're not forcing the other person to open up before they even ready to open up they would probably open up to you given that you're their partner they seem to have some safety with you but maybe that moment they might choose not to because they're still not sure about it for themselves or they're still working through it themselves so that consent helps the other person to come into the conversation when they are ready as well right so that that is maybe point one the the other point is also having these conversations when you're not triggered right so don't use it as ammo on each other that like oh yeah like it's because of your trauma that you're behaving this way with me intention again could be coming from a good place but in a sense that you're kind of trying to understand each other but in that moment you're in a fight like you're it it sounds like not a good thing to use against the other person right so um letting yourself so letting yourself ground yourself um and only bringing these conversations up or trying to only bring these conversations up when you are a little more um in a place where you both can just have a general conversation and are not in a conflict yeah right um Manali this um just one question comes up to me and it can be very controversial but out of all the couples that you know have come to you or have reached out to you does the conflict usually arise from their own internal conversation or do we see the conflict arising when their in-laws or the extended families involved what is the proportion of couples who usually reach out for this is a great question not controversial at all because it's a little challenging right like what I've seen is that most of the cation couples that struggle with are actually struggling with family in law and uh parents involvement and um and yeah it's so different from maybe couples who are not South Asians right like you see the difference um and then because of the family involvement there might still be other concerns but they start to go more in the background so you almost don't have the time and space to kind of even work through some of them because this is such a like such an big thing in the room yeah that's a great idea uh but but still you know we as South Asian people we are kind of very much protected of our families you know so we do not want to hear even from our partners the the person that we love the most coming from them that I'm facing this issue because of your family exactly so how how can couples initiate this conversation without actually hurting the other person that see I am facing this issue or we as couple are facing this issue because of your family or because of my family yeah I think it's a hard thing to avoid right like it there will be a discomfort at the beginning because there will be discomfort at the beginning because you're not because of the exact dynamic that you shared right like there is um I think it's hard for us to keep ourselves if if we can if we are able to recognize that this is a concern then exactly how you shared it right like I'm having this concern can we talk about it right while sometimes or a lot of times you the things build up so much that it reaches a point where it's like it's just a lash out right and in that moment it's very hard for you to kind of compose yourself and it's hard for the other person to see what you're talking about and they go into that protective shell so a lot of couples who come into couples therapy have reached some form of an acceptance stage where yes we are having family concerns we both are seeing things differently here but we want to prioritize our relationship and move forward from this conversation so there is a little bit of like you know um of state where they feel a little more grounded a little more accepting of this difference while at the beginning what I've seen is that it just kind of builds up so much at a certain point right that it's so and sometimes it's very hard to sometimes what I've seen is that like it's hard for them to it's hard for a lot of us to kind of like just um you almost normalize it you're like oh this is this is okay all families go through this or like all in-laws are like this or all parents are like this right so you normalize it in your mind and the other partner normalizes it in their mind that then it keeps adding up not recognizing that this is actually making me feel sad or making me feel rejected or um or disappointed right um but all those feelings are hard to notice during that time so then it builds up and then it's sort of yeah it comes out so I think it in some way I wish we have the solution but the Sol but then that's where the topic the other conversation comes up right of like how can families also be respectful of this relationship how can they start to maybe um recognize that you know again it's very it's a I don't even know what where to start there right because it's such a for them it's like oh we are just caring for our kids but they don't recognize the impact that they are having so there's a lot of stuff there so until that keeps happening this might keep happening but then what's helping is that they're like no no we need to stop we need to work a find a different way to work on this and then that's where the couple starts to take a different Rel different direction so I think the initial stage I feel feel is a it's kind of inevitable until like sort of this keeps happening in my opinion but I hope we can find different ways of working through that and um Manali all of these issues that you know couples usually face in their time how can couple therapy be uh guide to it a cure to it couple therapy I think to put it very softly it's a space where you prioritize your relationship so it's just it's 50 minutes of your time once a week where you're coming and talking about each other and the relationship right it could be a way of you showing up to each other um how it might be supportive is that it helps what I said earlier a few minutes ago in terms of the exercise it could help you do exactly that where you're understanding the other person's perspective you're trying to hear and understand the other person's internal world right because sometimes outside of therapy when you're in your day-to-day you have like life going on it's hard to do a hard to hard in that moment right so you don't you don't know really what why is my partner saying this and then you react to it right so coup therapy helps to come and help you build those tools of like okay maybe in that moment you're not able to but can you can you give yourself some time a little later when you have grounded yourself where you can practice this thing of like asking each other questions clarifying certain things and also providing that reassurance that the other person might need um then it also helps to work through some past conflicts right so like especially in as I mentioned like with in-laws or with parents some conflicts might keep building up which you never which was really hard to work through during those times so it helps you as a relationship to come together and shared that yes I was upset with my parents or my in-laws but I was also upset with you for how you behave there right so my anger is going towards them but I never really got a chance to feel angry towards you and then you're kind of like recognizing that these conflicts from the outside have actually created these cracks in the foundation and I we want to work on that together understood understood and still I see a lot of couples are very much you know susceptible to trying out couple's therapy knowing that it might just help them and also knowing that they are kind of you know if not the couple if not the talking about these issues to the therapist they are somewhere taking it out right maybe to their friends or maybe to their Partners itself you know in one form or the other so why is it that this is happening what are some common misconceptions or resistance towards couples therapy in the South Asian commun I think the the biggest common one is the cultural belief that we you shouldn't bring an outside stranger into our relationship issues right so that's one piece um the other one is you don't really recognize that these might be deeper concerns I think you you feel like okay I'm annoyed with my partner I'm going to go vent it out to someone right so you I think that might also be feeling like okay you you feel like it they might be just surfacy questions so it's sort of easy to get through but um and they might be but it just kind of continues and that's where C therapy comes into place um I think the other one is I think a very common misconception is that only people who are actually having struggles or are on the verge of breaking up go to coup's therapy and I want to say that's not true right like it's a yes it's commonly be because of the same misconception most of the people who do end up coming are towards the are having a challenging time are or are towards separation but couples therapy as a whole is not meant for that right it's meant to help you connect more with each other to help you build that Dynamic right so even though it might be common it doesn't make it only for that space um so um so for so even if the it's common that breakup times other times when couple's therapy is warranted it's not only meant for that either and um in fact like even in therapy individual therapy we talk about it the earlier you come in or like the earlier you are able to kind of work through some of the concerns that you're experiencing you have more resilience to work on that right um so yeah I think that could that's also a very big misconception and um and hopefully people who just want to understand their partner more connect with each other more it kind of thinking of it as like growing the relationship more could also access it the other thing is couple therapy is expensive it's very it's not always accessible right so people might just not feel the drive to come into it when they might feel like okay we can just work through some of these concerns on our own which is amazing so um um but I think the accessibility piece also um prevents one from seeking care until it's necessary thank you so much for joining us for this podcast yeah thank you very much and this was really fun and um yeah thank you for choosing this topic with your wonderful questions thank you so much um is there any you know last minute advice that you would like to give us or to our you know listeners yeah that like you both or every anyone in the couple is coming in with their own worldview and own perspective and you can build a relationship where you can allow yourselves to challenge certain World Views and um belief system so that you can show up to your partner um in a way so yeah I think kind of continuing to do that and continuing to build that emotional connection and um knowing that it's okay to know that like you don't know how to communicate and it's okay to ask for support around that right thank you so much for joining us thank you